A new super telephoto lens will be announced soon

David - Sydney

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Honestly reading this thread gives me bad vibes for the Canon community, in general. You guys really suck sometimes. Ganging up on someone for expressing their frustrations, then demanding data from him that nobody could ever provide, then continuing to bash him. Get over yourselves. Most of the opinions and comments here are just that—opinions. This is a forum for cameras, folks. We all have opinions and that’s why the forum exists. Yours isn’t better than somebody else’s because you give a few examples here and there yet hesitate to offer any other value or take a risk without the data. No reason to gang up on someone just because his or her opinion is different from yours. I happen to agree with a lot of what the poster said, but not everything—I’m not on here piling on and making him look like an idiot with my all-knowing superiority because I know everything about Canon and have nothing better to do with my time than study their history or financial statements. Again, get over yourselves and the superiority complex.
Hmmm... is it a superiority complex to ask someone to provide some logic for their strong opinions of Canon or other forum members?
We don't have any other information than what has been publicly provided but I am here to learn and have learnt a lot over the years.
I think that it is a public service to show actual data that contradicts (at least at a macro level) what your personal experience or opinion is.
Frankly, mouthing off doesn't help anyone. Making someone look like an idiot can be self evident.
Like another item of anatomy, everyone has an opinion and is entitled to it but it helps to try to provide something of interest to the group.

If you want to see what a real cesspool of a forum is, then try DPReview. Everyone shouting and no one listening and learning.
 
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neuroanatomist

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I don't buy all the doom and gloom about Nikon. They have been around for as long as Canon and they know the market as well as Canon does. Market share isn't everything and what really matters to companies is that they are turning a profit and offering value to shareholders.
Absolutely. As far as corporate longevity, camera market share is only relevant insofar as it influences the real market – i.e., the stock market. In Nikon's case, over the same 5 years where they've steadily lost ILC market share, their stock price looks like this:

Screenshot 2023-01-16 at 10.13.09 PM.png

They're not doing great (relative to the major indices, which are up 30-40% over those 5 years), but they're not a sinking ship, either. In fact, their stock price change is pretty similar to Canon's over the same period, although Canon's valuation is higher:

Screenshot 2023-01-16 at 10.26.14 PM.png
 
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Hmmm... is it a superiority complex to ask someone to provide some logic for their strong opinions of Canon or other forum members?
We don't have any other information than what has been publicly provided but I am here to learn and have learnt a lot over the years.
I think that it is a public service to show actual data that contradicts (at least at a macro level) what your personal experience or opinion is.
Frankly, mouthing off doesn't help anyone. Making someone look like an idiot can be self evident.
Like another item of anatomy, everyone has an opinion and is entitled to it but it helps to try to provide something of interest to the group.

If you want to see what a real cesspool of a forum is, then try DPReview. Everyone shouting and no one listening and learning.
I do agree with you on the DPReview forums and commentary. Cesspool is right. I prefer to come here and other smaller forums where we can get a little better discussion going, which is why the hateful stuff doesn’t sit well with me. If we want the same 10-20 people commenting here then the strategy is good. You can all just like each other’s post and serve Canon with no dissent. Bashing anyone who has an opinion that differs, questioning their motives and credibility and demanding private data to back up any of their comments, ganging up on people, it’s not likely to invite good discussion of any sort that differs from the norm. He made some good points in his post that were overlooked entirely because he didn’t study Nikon’s financial statements last quarter and recite them here for all. Not exactly the bar everyone should be held to when chatting about camera lenses and photography IMO.
 
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David - Sydney

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I do agree with you. Market share is not everything. Canon finds a way to lead but ruffles a lot of feathers along the way. I know more pros that refuse to ever buy a product from Canon again than pros that still shoot with them. But that’s just my experience and everyone’s differs. Canon makes fantastic products but they are definitely profit focused above all else. They’re certainly not known for their generosity with their customers, I’ll say that. They do what they need to survive and stay on top, and that’s obviously their measure of success. Other companies find ways to lead and treat their customers differently. We all make our choices on what to support and use.
"Generosity" is an interesting comment... How would you say that Sony/Nikon/Panasonic/Oly etc are generous compared to Canon?

I recently bought a DJI drone and in general, their return policy is much more lenient than I would have expected considering there is a lot of errors in the field. Their Refresh program is reasonably priced and seems to be used a lot although I haven't yet. Repairs/service seem to be quick and responsive. When there seems to be a wrong call from their service team and it is highlighted on facebook groups then they are generally quick to respond. I bought a set of propellers and they didn't arrive. DJI called me twice to ask if they had been delivered and then created a voucher code covering replacement and freight which then did arrive and they followed up afterwards to check.
I have lived/worked in China and never seen anything close to this level of customer service from a company there or virtually anywhere on earth although Lexus has been great.

I haven't seen anything like that from the ILC players though. The R5 does appear to have a dodgy hotshoe design and if you return it stating it is a design flaw then they will repair it gratis but otherwise they will charge you for the repair.
 
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Jethro

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We all say stuff we can’t “back up” with private data from these companies. You’re not special somehow and fall into that trap just like everyone else.
I'm not sure that's true. I make an effort to be clear when something is my opinion, or when I'm saying something that is factual. And I think most others do too. I certainly don't make broad statements like those I highlighted. And my first posts were purely on the factual points.

People of course have the right to be frustrated, although it's perhaps useful to remind ourselves this is a rumour about a possible super-tele lens - it's not Canon stating a new corporate policy of torturing kittens. It amazes me the extent to which some people personalise corporate strategies (in this case: whether to concentrate on prime/zoom lenses for the entry level, enthusiast level or 'pro' level).
 
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neuroanatomist

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I do agree with you on the DPReview forums and commentary. Cesspool is right. I prefer to come here and other smaller forums where we can get a little better discussion going, which is why the hateful stuff doesn’t sit well with me. If we want the same 10-20 people commenting here then the strategy is good. You can all just like each other’s post and serve Canon with no dissent. Bashing anyone who has an opinion that differs, questioning their motives and credibility and demanding private data to back up any of their comments, ganging up on people, it’s not likely to invite good discussion of any sort that differs from the norm. He made some good points in his post that were overlooked entirely because he didn’t study Nikon’s financial statements last quarter and recite them here for all. Not exactly the bar everyone should be held to when chatting about camera lenses and photography IMO.
If you choose to not only ignore, but defend and thus condone the posting of blatant falsehoods, that is your prerogative.

Perhaps in your opinion, he didn’t lie…he just embellished his facts like that guy from Long Island named George (or maybe his name is Anthony). Everyone does it, right? :rolleyes:
 
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danfaz

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    Honestly reading this thread gives me bad vibes for the Canon community, in general. You guys really suck sometimes. Ganging up on someone for expressing their frustrations, then demanding data from him that nobody could ever provide, then continuing to bash him.
    I don't think that individual is completely innocent. They joined the forum specifically to call someone out and say they were delusional in their thinking.
     
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    "Generosity" is an interesting comment... How would you say that Sony/Nikon/Panasonic/Oly etc are generous compared to Canon?

    I recently bought a DJI drone and in general, their return policy is much more lenient than I would have expected considering there is a lot of errors in the field. Their Refresh program is reasonably priced and seems to be used a lot although I haven't yet. Repairs/service seem to be quick and responsive. When there seems to be a wrong call from their service team and it is highlighted on facebook groups then they are generally quick to respond. I bought a set of propellers and they didn't arrive. DJI called me twice to ask if they had been delivered and then created a voucher code covering replacement and freight which then did arrive and they followed up afterwards to check.
    I have lived/worked in China and never seen anything close to this level of customer service from a company there or virtually anywhere on earth although Lexus has been great.

    I haven't seen anything like that from the ILC players though. The R5 does appear to have a dodgy hotshoe design and if you return it stating it is a design flaw then they will repair it gratis but otherwise they will charge you for the repair.
    You gave an excellent example of what I personally deem to be generosity and appreciation for their customers. Going above and beyond to show gratitude. Respect. Giving more than necessary when something arises as a form of thank you. Fujifilm listens to their customers in the forums and in general tries to let their community know they’re receptive to feedback at times. They offer more more firmware updates than the other companies do to extend the life of the product, or at least have done traditionally. Canon has been a bit stingy in these areas and in general seems to have a “you need us more than we need you” mentality in my experience. They’re the more arrogant of the lot, IMO—although Nikon has always been a little too high and mighty at times, only recently offering more for less in order to stay relevant with mirrorless. There are many ways a company can show gratitude for your business and offer a little generosity while still leading and profiting. Canon seems uninterested in those methodologies and that’s their right—but it definitely costs them something in the community.
     
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    Look I’ll be honest, I didn’t reply to be sucked into a nightlong discussion of defending my position and countering for hours on end. Since posting I’ve eaten dinner, watched some TV with the family, played with my dog, read some news and wound down for the evening, checked Instagram and DPReview. Now I’m off to read a book and fall asleep. Nobody in the right mind has the time needed to continue to fend off the flood of defensive comments nor dig around in these corporations’ financial statements just to keep a little “Canon Rumors street cred” or satiate the brand mobs. Just be kind to folks and enjoy the conversation—don’t run people off and then expect a good community. We all “embellish” a little with hyperbole and opinionated statements—no need to gang up and be a jerk about it. I’m guilty of it, too, we all are. Y’all have a good night.
     
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    David - Sydney

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    They offer more more firmware updates than the other companies do to extend the life of the product, or at least have done traditionally. Canon has been a bit stingy in these areas and in general seems to have a “you need us more than we need you” mentality in my experience. They’re the more arrogant of the lot, IMO
    Canon does seem to be changing over the last couple of years but not consistently.
    Body refresh rates are not always 4+ years if the R6ii (at the same price) and rumoured R5ii are to be believed.
    That said, The RP/P seem to be in need of replacement.
    Canon has also shown their engineering skills by pushing limits in both bodies and glass rather than being super conservative. Bar a couple of obvious examples, the high end RF glass is a step up in features (and price) on previous EF glass which has won a lot of new sales for them.

    The 5Div had 3 major releases but they were mostly "fixes a phenomenon" and not a lot of new features for the majority of users. The addition of CLog was return and pay but then bundled at a higher cost.

    The R5 has had 7 major firmware updates in the last 2.5 years to 1.7. Some stills features especially for AF improvement but mostly video improvements/features and that is in parallel with the R5C. This seems to be very un-like Canon of the past.

    There are still a few things that would improve my R5 but they are not deal breakers nor would they tempt me for a R5ii if they were fixed.... unless they added AF options for marine critters!
     
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    mxwphoto

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    I do think Nikon is doing a lot of interesting things and I do wish Canon would offer some similar options...

    ...Market share isn't everything and what really matters to companies is that they are turning a profit and offering value to shareholders...

    ...I bought Canon because at the time (1970s) I could get two bodies, and four lenses for the same price as two bodies and three lenses from Nikon...
    Canon and Nikon are both trying to respond to shareholders in different ways. Canon is trying to maintain their marketshare lead and also maintain/increase their profit margin per lens.

    Nikon, having been battered by the perception of subpar AF and mixed legacy lens compatibility has suffered in marketshare and thus have to gain it back to decent levels before they can increase margins.
    One way is to jump into pricing territory that the other may not want to ie the agressively priced Z9, while the other way is to serve niches that the market leaders may not want to ie the more "affordable" (and interesting) PF primes.

    My first DSLR was a Canon because more bang for the buck as well. I could get 8mpx and a starter lens vs 6mpx on a Nikon for the same money (back when mpx race mattered). Now Nikon and Canon's roles have switched.

    If Nikon gets their consumer z6 and z7 AF up to par on their mk IIIs and put up an excellent marketing campaign to overturn the negativity, I have no doubt they can gain back much of what they lost and steal back enough marketshare to make this a 3 way race as that means more innovation and better products for us consumers.

    So Nikon, z6 arrived 11/2018, z6 ii arrived 10/2020, why haven't thee produced thy mk IIIs yet?
     
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    Del Paso

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    Interesting comment about the A7. I was not a fan of the early Sony A7 series cameras either, but I finally made the jump to Sony about four months ago when I bought an A7 IV. So far so good. I won't say I will never go back to Canon (if you'd asked me three or four years ago I would have said I couldn't see myself moving to Sony!), and there is no doubt Canon makes good gear, but at this point I am very happy with the move. For me and what I shoot, the Sony system suits me better than the Canon system at this point in time.
    In my case, it was mostly a case of comparing how it felt to handle a 5 DIII and an A7. Having large hands, I couldn't get used to the A7*'s (forgot which it was...) tiny size. Also the shutter-shock of the A7 reminded me of the first Spotmatics, clonk...
    It certainly wasn't so bad a camera, but I couldn't sympathise with it.
    And Canon's 100-400 :love:, their TSEs :love:...
     
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    koenkooi

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    Forum dwellers are the biggest reason why Sony is not on my list of considerations for photo gear, except storage cards. So much so that in real life I am surprised that the person holding a Sony camera turns out to be a decent human being that can go 2 sentences without mentioning DR.
     
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    Chig

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    As an enthusiast, I am naturally not in the market for a big white prime, therefore have no specific wishes/ hopes/ whatsoever. There is one lense, that would strike my attention though:

    The EF 200mm F1.8 (or F2) sounds very interesting. Given a decent price point (which will probably never happen) an RF version would/ could tempt me. Since the EF design is very old (I guess, not doing any research here) a new optical formula might make it a stellar lense.

    With extenders you'd get:
    200mm F2 - 280mm F2.8 - 400mm F4

    I'd be willing to give up my 70-200 and 100-500mm for this, but they probably would not generate enough money to buy it.

    That might worth ones money.
    The EF200mm f/1.8 and f/2 is very similar to a 300mm f/2.8 in both size and production cost so an RF version be very pricy as is to be expected from the shortest Great White. If it's under $5000 USD it'll be a bargain
     
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    Kit.

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    Honestly reading this thread gives me bad vibes for the Canon community, in general. You guys really suck sometimes. Ganging up on someone for expressing their frustrations, then demanding data from him that nobody could ever provide, then continuing to bash him. Get over yourselves. Most of the opinions and comments here are just that—opinions. This is a forum for cameras, folks. We all have opinions and that’s why the forum exists. Yours isn’t better than somebody else’s because you give a few examples here and there yet hesitate to offer any other value or take a risk without the data. No reason to gang up on someone just because his or her opinion is different from yours. I happen to agree with a lot of what the poster said, but not everything—I’m not on here piling on and making him look like an idiot with my all-knowing superiority because I know everything about Canon and have nothing better to do with my time than study their history or financial statements. Again, get over yourselves and the superiority complex.
    There’s no reason to be a jerk on here to anyone. Really, it is that simple. If someone was a jerk to you, then call them out for it.
    OK, calling you out then.
     
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    AlanF

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    There are still a few things that would improve my R5 but they are not deal breakers nor would they tempt me for a R5ii if they were fixed.... unless they added AF options for marine critters!
    +1, but I hope it's not an excuse for Canon not to fix them.
     
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    AlanF

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    I've been a reader of this site for about 7 years, but never made an account. I just did, just to reply to your comment. Um.. do you realize that Nikon's 500 5.6 pf has been getting sold like crazy since it's release? I really don't think you understand just how amazing a 3k 500 5.6 is.. "perhaps canon knows something you don't"... While implying a 500 5.6 won't sell? Thats a little bit delusional. The 500 pf, 200-500, and now the 400 4.5 which overlap each other still exist because Nikon gives option to us mere mortals that can't buy a 10k lens. Canon's 100-400 ii is amazing but no it's not at the level of the 500pf (of course it's cheaper), neither is the 100-500 which is f7.1 and not quite as sharp.. anyway.. its very obvious why canon hasnt released a 500 5.6. it would be too affordable and people wont buy the 400 do.

    Also you said "..... Personally want something"..SO MANY people have been asking for an update to the now *30* year old 400 5.6, and the 25 year old 300 f4. Canon hasn't even bothered. Cmon. In 30 years they couldve updated it twice. Again, the reason behind it is very clear.
    I used the Nikon 500mm f/5.6 PF on a Nikon D500 and D850 for over a year and posted a lot of bird pics here from them, and it was my favourite lens. I then used the R5 and RF 100-500mm in parallel for a few months and then sold the Nikon gear because the RF 100-500mm is as indistinguishably as sharp at the long end, is of prime sharpness at the short, can focus down to just over 1m as opposed to 3m of the prime and so I can use it for near macro of insects as well as birds and animals at long distances. The RF 100-500 is about £800 cheaper than the 500 PF over here as well. If it means anything, MPB UK has 15 used 500 PFs on offer as opposed to 5 RF 100-500s. I don't think I would be tempted by an RF 500 f/5.6 as the zoom is so much more versatile at the cost of only 2/3rds stops. A light enough 500/4 might be a different matter.
     
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    Del Paso

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    Honestly reading this thread gives me bad vibes for the Canon community, in general. You guys really suck sometimes. Ganging up on someone for expressing their frustrations, then demanding data from him that nobody could ever provide, then continuing to bash him. Get over yourselves. Most of the opinions and comments here are just that—opinions. This is a forum for cameras, folks. We all have opinions and that’s why the forum exists. Yours isn’t better than somebody else’s because you give a few examples here and there yet hesitate to offer any other value or take a risk without the data. No reason to gang up on someone just because his or her opinion is different from yours. I happen to agree with a lot of what the poster said, but not everything—I’m not on here piling on and making him look like an idiot with my all-knowing superiority because I know everything about Canon and have nothing better to do with my time than study their history or financial statements. Again, get over yourselves and the superiority complex.
    Trouble is, many "opinions" are sold as hard facts with expert-like authority.
    Which they often aren't.
     
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    Forum dwellers are the biggest reason why Sony is not on my list of considerations for photo gear, except storage cards. So much so that in real life I am surprised that the person holding a Sony camera turns out to be a decent human being that can go 2 sentences without mentioning DR.
    Same here. When I decided to sell my 6D and my EF lenses (starting from scratch), some technical features of the A7III were apparently better than the ones on the EOS R.
    But i decided to avoid the risk of contagion.



    BTW I sold several EF Lenses and bought the RF similar versions (EF 24-105 L -> RF 24 - 105 L, EF 35mm F2 IS -> RF 35mm F1.8 IS etc.) but, before completing the transition to an adapter-free world, I bought an ancient EF 135mm F/2 L... so my plans will certainly be delayed.
     
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    scyrene

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    Honestly reading this thread gives me bad vibes for the Canon community, in general. You guys really suck sometimes. Ganging up on someone for expressing their frustrations, then demanding data from him that nobody could ever provide, then continuing to bash him. Get over yourselves. Most of the opinions and comments here are just that—opinions. This is a forum for cameras, folks. We all have opinions and that’s why the forum exists. Yours isn’t better than somebody else’s because you give a few examples here and there yet hesitate to offer any other value or take a risk without the data. No reason to gang up on someone just because his or her opinion is different from yours. I happen to agree with a lot of what the poster said, but not everything—I’m not on here piling on and making him look like an idiot with my all-knowing superiority because I know everything about Canon and have nothing better to do with my time than study their history or financial statements. Again, get over yourselves and the superiority complex.
    A handful of people responding to incendiary (not to mention nonsensical, histrionic, and clichéd) posts is not "ganging up". This forum is very polite compared to most online spaces. Doesn't seem like you read what was actually written, but if you agree with the OP that makes sense. Patiently explaining why Canon might be making potentially frustrating or confusing decisions is not expressing superiority, it's keeping the discussion within the bounds of reality. If anyone is acting superior, it's the poster calling everyone who disagrees with them "sheeple".
     
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