The Canon EOS R8 will be announced at CP+ in February

koenkooi

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There is clearly a push by Canon, Sony, Nikon to get people into Full Frame. And internet and YouTube influencers have certainly pushed the FF agenda for years now, in some cases clearly biased and clearly doing there best to kill certain crop sensor lines and even Micro Four Thirds in general. And yet, crop sensor cameras have always outsold FF by a wide margin. That margin seems to be narrowing - and my guess the main reason is because of that internet influence, as the younger generation especially seems prone to getting virtually all their information online. But as a photographer for over 40 years and almost 20 years now with digital equipment, I find that I use the crop bodies far more than FF and find crop to be far more versatile, in many cases due to the very things you mention. Personally, I think that without all the FF hype on the internet and YouTube, crop cameras would be gaining in popularity, especially as their major shorcoming - the additional noise - becomes almost a total non-factor with software such as Topaz and DXO PureRaw2. Sure, portrait and studio shooters and those needing thin DOF will always be better off using FF, but crop has more advantages, in my opinion.
I mostly agree with you. The main reason that I wanted to go from APS-C to FF was to fit larger insects (e.g. wasps) in the frame with the MP-E65mm. Going from 7D+M50 to RP+M6II gave me a lot of flexibility and I could mix the cameras and bodies if I wanted to. But now that I have replaced more and more EF lenses with RF variants, and seeing how far ahead the R5 is to the M6II, I find myself looking for a smaller R body. It being APS-C or FF doesn't really matter, I've come to appreciate how wide you can go on FF with the RF16 and using the 100-500 on a small-ish body wouldn't happen a lot.

So for me it's more about body size and form factor, less about sensor size. And after renting an R7: the auto-level feature using IBIS saves me a lot of horizon straightening in post :)
 
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neuroanatomist

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There is clearly a push by Canon, Sony, Nikon to get people into Full Frame. And internet and YouTube influencers have certainly pushed the FF agenda for years now, in some cases clearly biased and clearly doing their best to kill certain crop sensor lines and even Micro Four Thirds in general. And yet, crop sensor cameras have always outsold FF by a wide margin. That margin seems to be narrowing - and my guess the main reason is because of that internet influence, as the younger generation especially seems prone to getting virtually all their information online.
Full frame bodies and lenses seem to have a higher margin, so moving people from APS-C to FF means more profit for the manufacturer.

APS-C cameras have always outsold FF cameras, simply because they’re cheaper. I think what’s driving the ‘shift’ to FF is really an extension of the replacement of low end of the camera market with smartphones. Years ago, phones weren’t ‘real cameras’ and those who wanted to take pictures bought a P&S. The upgrade from that was an APS-C DSLR.

Today, phones are real cameras (albeit needing more post-processing, but that’s automatic), and the smartphones people are buying cost more than entry-level ILC kits, reducing the demand for APS-C bodies both from an imaging and a budget standpoint.

Fewer people are buying entry-level ILCs, so the relative proportion of FF cameras sold is increasing.

But as a photographer for over 40 years and almost 20 years now with digital equipment, I find that I use the crop bodies far more than FF and find crop to be far more versatile, in many cases due to the very things you mention.
For me, it’s still about using the best tool for the job. For example, when shooting architecture the narrower FoV of a crop sensor wouldn’t work for me — there isn’t an 11mm TS-E lens for crop sensors.
 
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entoman

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There is clearly a push by Canon, Sony, Nikon to get people into Full Frame. And internet and YouTube influencers have certainly pushed the FF agenda for years now, in some cases clearly biased and clearly doing there best to kill certain crop sensor lines and even Micro Four Thirds in general. And yet, crop sensor cameras have always outsold FF by a wide margin. That margin seems to be narrowing - and my guess the main reason is because of that internet influence, as the younger generation especially seems prone to getting virtually all their information online. But as a photographer for over 40 years and almost 20 years now with digital equipment, I find that I use the crop bodies far more than FF and find crop to be far more versatile, in many cases due to the very things you mention. Personally, I think that without all the FF hype on the internet and YouTube, crop cameras would be gaining in popularity, especially as their major shorcoming - the additional noise - becomes almost a total non-factor with software such as Topaz and DXO PureRaw2. Sure, portrait and studio shooters and those needing thin DOF will always be better off using FF, but crop has more advantages, in my opinion.
Camera manufacturers will always need something "new and different" to market. They need to convince potential customers that whatever they currently have isn't good enough anymore. Full frame DSLRs provided the necessary hype for a few years, along with the quest for ever-increasing sensor resolution, video, and IBIS. All of these now incorporated into mirrorless FF bodies featuring a change of lens mount, that enables them to sell a whole new set of lenses as well as bodies.

But once a certain point is reached, people tend to ask themselves whether there is any point in upgrading to another basically similar design of camera. After all, our existing cameras are technologically more capable than the photographers behind them. So sooner or later, Canon etc will have to create another completely different line of cameras, and will have to convince us that they offer real benefits over what we currently use.

Once we reach the point (5 years?) where hand-held pixel shift for moving subjects is truly usable, smaller formats won't be at a disadvantage, and their positive aspects such as portability and their greater suitability for computational photography will be promoted by the marketing folk, and we'll all be craving for APS-C and M43. There will still be a demand for FF, but IMO the bulk of buyers will be using smaller formats in 5 years.
 
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neuroanatomist

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There will still be a demand for FF, but IMO the bulk of buyers will be using smaller formats in 5 years.
Huh?!?

The ‘bulk of buyers’ have used smaller formats for as long as digital cameras have been around. Even ignoring the P&S/bridge segmemt (which was larger than the ILC segment until recently), crop cameras comprised 90% of the ILC market until the last couple of years, over which it has shifted to ~85%.
 
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entoman

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Huh?!?

The ‘bulk of buyers’ have used smaller formats for as long as digital cameras have been around. Even ignoring the P&S/bridge segmemt (which was larger than the ILC segment until recently), crop cameras comprised 90% of the ILC market until the last couple of years, over which it has shifted to ~85%.
Indeed, I didn't phrase that very well ;).

What I was trying to say was that I think the bulk of *current FF users* will switch back to smaller formats in 5 years time. By then APS-C will probably have reached 50MP, and AI firmware, in conjunction with merging of bursts, will have virtually eliminated noise and generally improved IQ to a level that matches the best of today's FF cameras.

Of course, there will still be new FF and MF cameras made in 5 years time, but they will I think their usage will be mainly restricted to professionals and those with specialised interests.
 
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Czardoom

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For me, it’s still about using the best tool for the job. For example, when shooting architecture the narrower FoV of a crop sensor wouldn’t work for me — there isn’t an 11mm TS-E lens for crop sensors.
And that's how it should be for everyone - they should get the camera that best suits there needs, not the camera that gets the most hype or that has the most YouTubers gushing over how great it is.
 
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entoman

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And that's how it should be for everyone - they should get the camera that best suits there needs, not the camera that gets the most hype or that has the most YouTubers gushing over how great it is.
The problem is that not everyone knows what camera best suits their needs:

Experienced photographers have usually used several cameras/lenses and have learned what they need and what they don't need. They also generally visit sites like dpreview, imaging resource etc, and consequently gain a pretty good insight into what's on offer, and choose their gear accordingly.

Novices on the other hand lack the experience or knowledge to understand what gear best suits their needs, and live in a youtube dominated world where people lack the patience to read written reviews and can't even be bothered to download and read instruction manuals. Many of them will ask a "photographer friend" for advice, but that advice is often biased towards the brand the photographer uses.

The best way to advise novices is to ask them exactly what type of subjects they want to photograph, how much they want to spend, and then give them a shortlist of models from various brands, and suggest that they visit a store and try out each of them in turn to see which model feels most comfortable and enjoyable to use.
 
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scyrene

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Indeed, I didn't phrase that very well ;).

What I was trying to say was that I think the bulk of *current FF users* will switch back to smaller formats in 5 years time. By then APS-C will probably have reached 50MP, and AI firmware, in conjunction with merging of bursts, will have virtually eliminated noise and generally improved IQ to a level that matches the best of today's FF cameras.

Of course, there will still be new FF and MF cameras made in 5 years time, but they will I think their usage will be mainly restricted to professionals and those with specialised interests.
Five years seems optimistic for a seismic shift. It's little more than one generation within a line.
 
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entoman

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Five years seems optimistic for a seismic shift. It's little more than one generation within a line.
Quite possibly, I did consider 10 years as an alternative, but we already have a 40MP APS-C sensor from Fujifilm, and some quite advanced computational photography happening with Olympus/OM Systems, which is why I plumped for "5 years?".

Also, I think that the popularity of lenses such as the RF100-400mm, RF600mm F11 etc clearly show that many people are fed up with heavy gear, and will increasingly turn to smaller formats. The R7 may well prove to be Canon's biggest selling camera... let's see where things stand in a year's time.

Have you noticed that the OM Systems OM-1 actually took 2nd place in the Imaging Resource Reader's Choice Camera of the Year 2022?

I think that's quite a strong indication of where things will be heading.
 
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scyrene

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Quite possibly, I did consider 10 years as an alternative, but we already have a 40MP APS-C sensor from Fujifilm, and some quite advanced computational photography happening with Olympus/OM Systems, which is why I plumped for "5 years?".

Also, I think that the popularity of lenses such as the RF100-400mm, RF600mm F11 etc clearly show that many people are fed up with heavy gear, and will increasingly turn to smaller formats. The R7 may well prove to be Canon's biggest selling camera... let's see where things stand in a year's time.

Have you noticed that the OM Systems OM-1 actually took 2nd place in the Imaging Resource Reader's Choice Camera of the Year 2022?

I think that's quite a strong indication of where things will be heading.
I don't know much about other brands tbh. But broadly I don't imagine current FF users will migrate to smaller formats in large numbers, they tend to be wedded to the larger sensor whether it's objectively better for what they do or not, and the progression in people's heads is from smaller to larger. Personally I am considering an R7 as a secondary body but smaller than APS-C sensors don't attract me not least because Canon doesn't do them in the EF/RF system.
 
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unfocused

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Just a few counter points to consider.
Camera manufacturers will always need something "new and different" to market. They need to convince potential customers that whatever they currently have isn't good enough anymore.
That's true.
Full frame DSLRs provided the necessary hype for a few years, along with the quest for ever-increasing sensor resolution, video, and IBIS. All of these now incorporated into mirrorless FF bodies featuring a change of lens mount, that enables them to sell a whole new set of lenses as well as bodies.
I'm not sure this is "hype." There are real advantages and uses for higher resolution, video and IBIS. They aren't pretend features as the word "hype" implies.
...sooner or later, Canon etc will have to create another completely different line of cameras, and will have to convince us that they offer real benefits over what we currently use.
Over 60+ years the only "completely different line of cameras" that have earned widespread acceptance I can think of are digital vs film and now mirrorless vs. SLR. But in both cases, I would question how "completely different" they are than the cameras that came before them. I also question whether these were "created" simply to sell more cameras, as you seem to be implying. Rather, it seems like they were evolutionary changes resulting from changes in available technology. An "organic" change as opposed to one simply to sell new cameras.
Once we reach the point (5 years?) where hand-held pixel shift for moving subjects is truly usable, smaller formats won't be at a disadvantage, and their positive aspects such as portability and their greater suitability for computational photography will be promoted by the marketing folk, and we'll all be craving for APS-C and M43. There will still be a demand for FF, but IMO the bulk of buyers will be using smaller formats in 5 years.
That's one possibility, but I'm not sure I'm as confident as you are. What advantage would pixel shift/computational photography have for most enthusiasts. I am just one person, but for me, I enjoy the challenge of capturing a good image on my own, not through computer manipulation. Of course, I love improvements in autofocus, low-light sensitivity, etc., but having a computer "fix" my out-of-focus or blurred images might take some of the fun out of photography.
What I was trying to say was that I think the bulk of *current FF users* will switch back to smaller formats in 5 years time. By then APS-C will probably have reached 50MP, and AI firmware, in conjunction with merging of bursts, will have virtually eliminated noise and generally improved IQ to a level that matches the best of today's FF cameras.
For me, if full frame cameras reach into the 60-70 mp range, I don't think I'd have any interest in APS-C. I loved my 7DII at the time, but I don't have any interest in the R7, Mostly because I prefer the better autofocus and versatility of the R5. The problem with extreme crops that a 50mp APS-C camera offers is that there is a diminishing return because autofocus systems just aren't capable of accurately hitting the ideal focus point the further you get away from the subject. Perhaps that will change, but I'm not sure.
Novices on the other hand lack the experience or knowledge to understand what gear best suits their needs, and live in a youtube dominated world where people lack the patience to read written reviews and can't even be bothered to download and read instruction manuals. Many of them will ask a "photographer friend" for advice, but that advice is often biased towards the brand the photographer uses.
There are very few novices buying $2,000 plus lens and camera combinations as their first purchase. Most people start with an iPhone and then, if they get interested and can afford it, they progress up the ladder. That is a very small percentage of photographers and is likely to remain so.
The best way to advise novices is to ask them exactly what type of subjects they want to photograph, how much they want to spend, and then give them a shortlist of models from various brands, and suggest that they visit a store and try out each of them in turn to see which model feels most comfortable and enjoyable to use.
Where are they going to find a store to test these out at. Even Best Buy barely has any cameras anymore and brick and mortar stores are near impossible to find outside of major cities. Even Chicago barely has any camera stores anymore.
Also, I think that the popularity of lenses such as the RF100-400mm, RF600mm F11 etc clearly show that many people are fed up with heavy gear, and will increasingly turn to smaller formats. The R7 may well prove to be Canon's biggest selling camera... let's see where things stand in a year's time.
Have you noticed that the OM Systems OM-1 actually took 2nd place in the Imaging Resource Reader's Choice Camera of the Year 2022?

I think that's quite a strong indication of where things will be heading.
I would be willing to take your bet on the R7.

You may be correct about the desire for smaller gear, but I think that is more a function of the aging-out of the enthusiast base, rather than a reflection of new photographers. At some point, it gets too hard to carry the heavy gear.

Also, how do you know the popularity of the lenses you mentioned is because of the size and weight and not the significant cost savings. I suspect most people buying the 800 mm f11 are buying it because they could never afford the big white version.

Which also raises another point. The size and weight of the camera body is negligible in comparison to lenses for those shooting wildlife and birds. And, while crop sensors can allow the use of smaller lenses, I think most enthusiasts will still opt for the longest lens they can afford. The 100-500 on an R7 would give me more reach, but it's not going to make the combination significantly lighter or smaller.

Finally, since the older enthusiast base is also the market that has the most disposable income, they are more willing to pay for experiences that will get them closer to their preferred subjects and these "trips of a lifetime" offer a powerful incentive to carry the best equipment possible, since the cost of the equipment amortized over several trips is small compared to the cost of the travel.


I don't disagree with many of your points, but I don't think it is as clear-cut and simple as you believe.
 
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entoman

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Over 60+ years the only "completely different line of cameras" that have earned widespread acceptance I can think of are digital vs film and now mirrorless vs. SLR. But in both cases, I would question how "completely different" they are than the cameras that came before them.
We could debate what constitutes a "completely different" type of camera, but I can think of several that you haven't listed, including twin-lens reflex, rangefinder, polaroid, SLR, DSLR, bridge, MILC and smartphone. I agree that these new designs are the result of evolution and new technology. I wasn't suggesting that the sole purpose of their creation was to sell new cameras, rather that their creation provides manufacturers with enormously valuable marketing material and prevents stagnation of sales.

What advantage would pixel shift/computational photography have for most enthusiasts.
Handheld pixel-shift with moving subjects, will when fully developed enable smaller sensors to provide higher resolutions without artefacts caused by movement. AI-assisted merging of short bursts can increase DR and drastically reduce noise. AI can pick out the sharpest images in a series. It can also pick out the sharpest elements in each of a series of images and merge them into a single shot, either for focus bracketing or to eliminate unwanted movement blur. The technology we are seeing now is just the tip of the iceberg. Whether or not you enjoy using the technology is a personal choice, but it will be valuable to a huge number of photographers.

There are very few novices buying $2,000 plus lens and camera combinations as their first purchase. Most people start with an iPhone and then, if they get interested and can afford it, they progress up the ladder. That is a very small percentage of photographers and is likely to remain so.
I agree but why did you choose that figure? There is no reason why AI tech has to be confined to $2000+ cameras, it's just software, and will find its way into sub-$1000 novice cameras, just as it already exists in affordable smartphones.
Where are they going to find a store to test these out at. Even Best Buy barely has any cameras anymore and brick and mortar stores are near impossible to find outside of major cities. Even Chicago barely has any camera stores anymore.
People demand low prices and like the convenience of ordering online. The price we pay is that it has driven many retailers out of business and it's increasingly difficult to find a store where we can "play" with cameras prior to purchase. Much depends on where we live. In the UK it's still quite easy to find camera stores - most people can find one within about 20 miles of home. Another option is for photographer friends to meet and provide opportunities to handle and discuss the merits/drawbacks of their various brands/models.

Also, how do you know the popularity of the lenses you mentioned is because of the size and weight and not the significant cost savings. I suspect most people buying the 800 mm f11 are buying it because they could never afford the big white version.
I don't think people buy the "budget" RF lenses purely for the cost savings. If the 800mm F11 was twice the weight but the same price, I wouldn't have bought it. Same goes for the RF 100-400mm. If it weighed twice as much and was the same price, it would sell in much lower numbers. These lenses are bought due to Canon having produced lenses with a near-perfect balance of affordability, performance and portability.
The size and weight of the camera body is negligible in comparison to lenses for those shooting wildlife and birds. And, while crop sensors can allow the use of smaller lenses, I think most enthusiasts will still opt for the longest lens they can afford. The 100-500 on an R7 would give me more reach, but it's not going to make the combination significantly lighter or smaller.
I don't think it's the size and weight of the body that makes people buy APS-C. The prime motivation for many is probably the lower price. For sports and wildlife photographers the prime motivation is probably the crop factor, which gives them extra reach for less money and less weight.

Anyway, thanks for an interesting discussion.
 
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EOS 4 Life

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Quite possibly, I did consider 10 years as an alternative, but we already have a 40MP APS-C sensor from Fujifilm, and some quite advanced computational photography happening with Olympus/OM Systems, which is why I plumped for "5 years?".

Also, I think that the popularity of lenses such as the RF100-400mm, RF600mm F11 etc clearly show that many people are fed up with heavy gear, and will increasingly turn to smaller formats. The R7 may well prove to be Canon's biggest selling camera... let's see where things stand in a year's time.

Have you noticed that the OM Systems OM-1 actually took 2nd place in the Imaging Resource Reader's Choice Camera of the Year 2022?

I think that's quite a strong indication of where things will be heading.
Canon would love us to pay $6K for APS-C cameras.
The market just does not see a perceived value in that.
Fuji is trying to push APS-C upmarket and people were hoping Canon would do that with the R7.

The OM-1 is actually a downmarket retreat from the EM1X that did not sell until Olympus drastically lowered the price.
 
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entoman

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Fuji is trying to push APS-C upmarket and people were hoping Canon would do that with the R7.
It's true that a lot of people were screaming for an RF mount APS-C built to the durability standards of the 7DMkii. I think that while a few were disappointed that the R7 is "just" a prosumer model, almost everyone was very pleasantly surprised at the specification, performance and value.

It's possible that Canon, being a conservative company, is testing the *current* market for APS-C by initially releasing budget models (R7, R10), and that they may release a pro-build APS-C later, but of course that will only happen *IF* they deem there is sufficient demand, and at the moment I don't think that demand exists.

Olympus got it wrong with the EM1X - the whole point of Oly for most people was the portability. You refer to the OM1 as a downmarket retreat from the EM1X, but I see it as a significantly improved version of the E M1 Mkiii. The OM1 is an amazingly capable camera, and I hope and believe that OM Systems will launch an even better model, with a higher resolution sensor and more advanced AI capabilities within 2-3 years.
 
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Bob Howland

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The OM-1 is actually a downmarket retreat from the EM1X that did not sell until Olympus drastically lowered the price.
Downmarket retreat? What does the E-M1X do that the OM-1 with the HLD-10 battery pack doesn't do better? When I was considering buying an OM-1, I couldn't figure out why the E-M1X even existed. Maybe there are a lot of people who think that a "professional" camera has to look like that.
 
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neuroanatomist

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When I was considering buying an OM-1, I couldn't figure out why the E-M1X even existed. Maybe there are a lot of people who think that a "professional" camera has to look like that.
I couldn’t care less how a ‘professional’ camera looks. I care how the camera I’m using feels in my hand and balances with a lens attached. That’s why I prefer 1-series bodies, and why I didn’t switch to a MILC for my primary camera until the R3 came out.
 
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entoman

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I couldn’t care less how a ‘professional’ camera looks. I care how the camera I’m using feels in my hand and balances with a lens attached. That’s why I prefer 1-series bodies, and why I didn’t switch to a MILC for my primary camera until the R3 came out.
Like other aspects of ergonomics, vertical grips are very much a matter of personal preference. I've used a 1Dxii and agree that it handles extremely well, but I found the weight excessive. I also had a bolt-on grip on my 6D, which for me was a better solution. For general wildlife photography, when using a grip I find cameras are better balanced and easier to steer with a long lens attached. But for insect photography, a smaller camera is easier to poke into foliage, and enables the lens to be at ground level.

I haven't yet bought a grip for my R5, mainly because I think the accessory is overpriced (GBP 419 in the UK, with a cashback of GBP 40 available). AFAIK there are no third party options. I always shoot in landscape format (it seems more natural to me, as human eyes are arranged horizontally!), so the purpose of a grip would be to obtain extra battery life, and improved handling when using long lenses.
 
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Del Paso

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Canon would love us to pay $6K for APS-C cameras.
The market just does not see a perceived value in that.
Fuji is trying to push APS-C upmarket and people were hoping Canon would do that with the R7.

The OM-1 is actually a downmarket retreat from the EM1X that did not sell until Olympus drastically lowered the price.
No matter where you look at, the OM 1 has been improved in almost every feature compared to the heavy and bulky EM1X.
It offers some characteristics I'd like to see in a Canon, for instance tripod-less high resolution shot mode (50 MP), or, on a tripod, 80 ! MP.
The EM1X has actually become the downmarket model.
The OM 1 is the first Olympus I feel like buying.
 
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neuroanatomist

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Canon would love us to pay $6K for APS-C cameras.
The market just does not see a perceived value in that.
Fuji is trying to push APS-C upmarket and people were hoping Canon would do that with the R7.

The OM-1 is actually a downmarket retreat from the EM1X that did not sell until Olympus drastically lowered the price.
Starting with the 7D and continuing with the 7DII, people on this forum claimed an ‘ASP-C 1D X’ would be a very popular camera.

Yet another way in which it’s obvious that many people don’t understand the ILC market.

But it’s also true that Fuji and OM aren’t Canon. Smaller companies often try to make products the market leader doesn’t, precisely because the market leader doesn’t.
 
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