The Canon EOS R8 will be announced at CP+ in February

Deepboy

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    I am not a pro, but I estimate I have changed in the field the lens (usually by taking TCs on and off) on my R5 and R7 well over a 1000 times with my fingers and thumb getting nowhere the shutter. Without that closing shutter, I would have been having to clean my sensors regularly. So, if your guess is correct, then the R10 is not aimed at the likes of me or careful pros like you.

    My post was not something "pro are better, any other no", i just guessed what Canon engineers COULD have guessed on their side, which is imho something like "what would be more dangerous for the average user of the R10? Sensor dust or touching and bending the shutter? Hell, average user would probably change lens half dozen times per year at best, and would never see sensor dust; menwhile, what if the guy touches the shutter? Does he know how delicate are those curtains? No way we're letting them have the shutter closing when the camera is off, that's too dangerous".

    They don't make "pro or not pro argument" either, they just make the argument "how prevent the average user to unintentionally break the camera", and I think they guessed that way abut the R10, simply as that.
     
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    neuroanatomist

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    I just bought an R10 as backup to my R6 and I wasn't happy about this lack; but then I think I understand why they did it.

    I think first, lot of R10 user will mount the kit lens when purchasing and most likely will never change it, probably they maybe don't even have a second lens; so dust on sensor wouldn't be such a problem (and they probably wouldn't even notice the dust in pictures).

    Second and much more important, the shutter curtains are way, WAY, WAAAAAYYY more delicate then the sensor itself, and Canon decided that a "not-so-pro-typical-R10-user" would most likely be less careful and delicate compared to a more advanced/pro user, and they could damage the shutter curtains easily; so they decided to leave the sensor exposed because it wouldn't be damaged if touched.

    Me as a professional, shooting SLR's since 1999, every time i switch the lens on my R6 I'm SOOO careful, because there's the shutter exposed, and there's even not the mirror box, so the shutter is really, REALLY close to the lens mount, and touching and damaging wouldn't be so difficult for someone less caring then me (or simply the amateur user who, and it's not a crime, don't known how delicate those curtains are).

    So I think I understand why they didn't included it; would be nice if they implement via firmware (leaving it disabled by default), and if you activate the shutter closure on turn off, show a message clearly explain that could be dangerous and that the user will take all responsibility when handling the camera without the lens.
    Sorry, but I don’t get it. Just keep your fingers out of the big hole in the middle of the camera. It’s not difficult. Generally the only people who stick fingers in things without thought of consequences are toddlers. So unless you’re saying that’s the R10 market, I’m not following your logic.

    Having said that, I do agree than many if not most R10 buyers will just stick the kit lens on and leave it there, especially since there’s no 2-lens kit option (yet).
     
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    entoman

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    My post was not something "pro are better, any other no", i just guessed what Canon engineers COULD have guessed on their side, which is imho something like "what would be more dangerous for the average user of the R10? Sensor dust or touching and bending the shutter? Hell, average user would probably change lens half dozen times per year at best, and would never see sensor dust; menwhile, what if the guy touches the shutter? Does he know how delicate are those curtains? No way we're letting them have the shutter closing when the camera is off, that's too dangerous".

    They don't make "pro or not pro argument" either, they just make the argument "how prevent the average user to unintentionally break the camera", and I think they guessed that way abut the R10, simply as that.
    I'm a retired pro, now a hobbyist. In the days when I used DSLRs (actually I still do, occasionally), I never for a single second worried about dust getting on the sensor, and never worried about accidentally poking the mirror, even though I'd sometimes swap lenses several times a day, and sometimes in dusty conditions.

    When I switched to mirrorless 3 years ago, one of my concerns was getting dust on the sensor, so I always close the curtains when changing lenses. But I freely admit that I sometimes feel a little nervous about damaging the shutter, if I'm changing lenses in a moving vehicle (e.g. on safari) or if I'm changing lenses one-handed when using the other hand to steady myself when clambering about in difficult terrain (rainforests, rockfaces etc). For me, ideally I'd have 2 or 3 identical bodies, each fitted with a different lens, that would rarely be removed - but that wouldn't be practical or economically viable!

    I'd guess that your belief that R10 buyers probably only change lenses quite rarely is correct, and I agree that Canon may well have considered that inexperienced buyers of R10 could accidentally damage the shutter when doing so. Perhaps the best option would be to allow the user to decide (as with most other Canon models), but to have "shutter open when changing lenses" as the default setting.
     
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    Deepboy

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    Sorry, but I don’t get it. Just keep your fingers out of the big hole in the middle of the camera. It’s not difficult. Generally the only people who stick fingers in things without thought of consequences are toddlers. So unless you’re saying that’s the R10 market, I’m not following your logic.

    Man, probably 50% of the R10 users doesn't even know what a "shutter" is, let alone what "curtains" are and how fragile they are; not everybody is here on a Canon forum, with knowledge of how cameras are built and works. We are not the "average user".
    I'm just saying, Canon thought "how we can prevent inexperienced people to break the camera?", and they came with "if they touch the shutter they break it, if they touch the sensor nothing happens except fingerprints, so we don't let them see, and touch, the shutter", and they went with it. Period.

    I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying (after ten years of working in a big company that manufacture medical devices, namely equipments used by hospital professionals and not by the general public) that companies design and manufacture their items to be "stupid-proof", to the point of often disabling or not implementing useful functions just to avoid someone misusing them.
    If i would be a Canon engineer (I'm not an engineer; i was the sales director in the company I was working for, but I had a voice when deciding which features where to be offered in the equipments) I would have done the exact same choice for the R10: "in the doubt, better them not to be able to touch those curtains". Better safe then sorry, Canon wants things to work and people to be happy, not a bunch of camera to be returned to service assistance, just to be later called in forums "the company whose shutter breaks easily at first touch".
     
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    Many people also thought that there was a need for a 7DMkiii to compete with the Nikon D500.
    Many people thought there was a need for a hi-performance FF DSLR above the 5DMkiv, to compete with the Nikon D850.
    Neither camera ever appeared.
    Wasn’t that at the time in which Canon was already developing the R system and R&D had shifted to R bodies and lenses? I’m sure there would have been an answer from Canon if the DSLR had endured a few more years.
     
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    Some people think there is a "need" for a new FF successor to the R
    Some people think there is a "need" for a FF successor to the RP.
    Here´s is why I strongly believe Canon will introduce a new FF model underneath the R6mk ii, which in my opinion will be (a) successor(s) to the RP/ R:

    Nikon has the z5 which sells at around 1.000 € in Germany. Nikonrumors had several posts last year with rumors filled about the possible Z5 mk ii specs. Pretty sure, this camera will be released in 2023…

    Sony has the A7mk iii (sells for around 1.600 - 1.700 €) and the A7 mk iii (sells for less than 1.000 € now).

    If Canon should really decide not to replace the R/ RP then they would basically leave the sales to Nikon and Sony in an upcoming area where a lot of sales actually take place. The Sony models e.g. rank in amazon sales list for cameras in Germany #7 & #17. In 2022, the mkiii actually outsold every Canon rebel to make the list…

    https://www.amazon.de/gp/bestsellers/photo/571862/ref=zg_bs_pg_1?ie=UTF8&pg=1

    Of course, Amazon does not reflect all camera sales in Germany, but it is available data which people actually use to get a generell overview and maybe base a sales decision on. Furthermore, it shows that cheap full frame models are needed and sell well. If I find more time, I'll to research more data...

    So, Nikon FF cameras would start at around 1.000 €
    Sony FF cameras at less than 1.000 €
    Canon FF would start at 2.899 € with the R6mkii if the RP/R are discontinued/ not replaced.

    That’s absolutely not a favorable gap for Canon…

    Furthermore, the R had a huge price drop during the black friday sales end of November. There sold at 1.299 € instead of 1.899 €. I personally thought there getting rid of their last stock… Yesterday, I went to Foto-Erhardt in Osnabrück. They had several R in their shelves. When I asked about them, the salesmen said that his boss thought they’d sell like crazy over black friday/ cyber week but a lot of customers opted not to get an R because it is outdated…

    If you put all pieces together, there is a need for a cheap FF canon camera model. Furthermore, Canon always react to sales numbers and the competition and not our wishlist (as many in this forum always state): both clearly state imho that a R/ RP successor is needed….

    I know you don’t believe in a FF replacement for the R/RP, but I do. If Canon doesn’t come up with till 2024, then I’ll have to figure things out for me. I’m not going to buy the R6/ R6mkii or R5 at full retail. A used R5 when the R5mkii hits the shelves might be possible, otherwise I would have to think of a different solution for my needs.
     
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    Yet thus far, there is no sign of either. I genuinely wish you luck, but don't hold your breath.
    Well, if we're being honest here:
    There is no sign of the R1, R5 high res and there was absolutely no indication the R6mkii was coming till a few days before it got announced so that doesn't mean anything concerning a R/ RP successor. Furthermore, a RP/R won't need as much field testing as Canon does with their high-end models (maybe they don't even field test, I don't know...) so there are fewer "sources" to report to CR or other sites...

    Anyway, lately Canon has become very good of not letting us what they're up to. Or the rumor sites have done a bad job in figuring it out.
    The roadmap posted on CR in 2020 was very precise, therefore I'd suspect Canon somehow wanted to let people know without being held accountable for it. (Yes, companies do that). Now they've obviously changed their policy. The roadmap is not being updated, the UWA lenses which apparently are coming seem like wild guesses and nobody can really make sense of the ongoing rumors.

    In my honest guess: we will see an RP/ R successor BEFORE we see the R1!
     
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    neuroanatomist

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    Man, probably 50% of the R10 users doesn't even know what a "shutter" is, let alone what "curtains" are and how fragile they are; not everybody is here on a Canon forum, with knowledge of how cameras are built and works. We are not the "average user".
    I'm just saying, Canon thought "how we can prevent inexperienced people to break the camera?", and they came with "if they touch the shutter they break it, if they touch the sensor nothing happens except fingerprints, so we don't let them see, and touch, the shutter", and they went with it. Period.

    I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying (after ten years of working in a big company that manufacture medical devices, namely equipments used by hospital professionals and not by the general public) that companies design and manufacture their items to be "stupid-proof", to the point of often disabling or not implementing useful functions just to avoid someone misusing them.
    If i would be a Canon engineer (I'm not an engineer; i was the sales director in the company I was working for, but I had a voice when deciding which features where to be offered in the equipments) I would have done the exact same choice for the R10: "in the doubt, better them not to be able to touch those curtains". Better safe then sorry, Canon wants things to work and people to be happy, not a bunch of camera to be returned to service assistance, just to be later called in forums "the company whose shutter breaks easily at first touch".
    Perhaps I should have said, I understand your logic but I don’t agree with it. I think it’s a rare user of electronics who’d think it logical to stick their fingers in the ‘box’, whether that box is a camera or a toaster. By reverse but similar logic, one could argue that by leaving out that plain black curtain, people would be more likely to touch the bare sensor, “Ooooo…shiny!!”

    As I said, it makes sense that most R10 users won’t change lenses much if ever. More logical that Canon decided that meant it was reasonable to omit the protective shutter to lower production cost (and thus increase margin).
     
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    Of course the 15-30mm is designed for FF cameras. But why do you believe it is only intended for R/RP customers? That's crazy. Just because someone owns an R5/R6 it doesn't mean they'll only buy L glass. Optically the "budget" RF lenses are more than good enough for most people - the RF100-400mm for example produces extremely sharp photos on my R5, with nicer bokeh than the RF100-500mm, and is a fraction of the cost and weight. Not everyone needs their lenses to be weatherproof or built to withstand a beating. I think you might be surprised how many owners of R5/R6 buy budget lenses such as the 15-30mm, 100-400mm, 600mm F11 and 800mm F11. They's also be buying cheap Tamron and Sigma lenses if they were available in RF mount.
    Ok, that's true. I got to admit. It also works the other way round, I once saw somebody with a 1300d (whatever the rebel name is) with an EF 100-400mm II L lense... but that's usually not the norm.

    Let me phrase it in a different way:
    Do you believe Canon would have designed and starting selling the RF 15-30mm IF they didn't have an R/ RP based customers?
    I don't believe they would have done that because R5/6 customers are obviously willing to spend more money on cameras and lenses and therefore the UWA L zooms PLUS the EF versions would have been enough to satisfy those customers. There are some lenses which actually cater the needs of entry full-frame level cameras perfectly and I doubt Canon would have poured so R&D in to and then get rid of the full-frame entry level cameras. If later pro/ enthusiasts or people who are willing to spend money buy them, they'd be fine with it. Also, as I have heard in Germany several times: a lot of pros buy the best lenses available to be their "workhorses" and budget lenses for small needs or just for fun (for leisure photography...). The RF 15-30mm would fit this category perfectly...

    But, time will tell.
    PS: with the 600mm/ 800mm I believe Canon actually had enthusiasts/pros in mind... those are such lightweight lenses, perfect for traveling with "long ones" or getting a second long tele lenses next to one of your big whites. I also guess that's why they were released with the R5 and R6.
     
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    Deepboy

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    Perhaps I should have said, I understand your logic but I don’t agree with it.

    As I said, it makes sense that most R10 users won’t change lenses much if ever. More logical that Canon decided that meant it was reasonable to omit the protective shutter to lower production cost (and thus increase margin).

    I don't agree with my logic as well ahah I've got an R10 and i really would have loved that shutter protection! (Actually, the R10 took place, as backup, of an M6 Mk II, that you know well as I see it in your signature; I was tired of dealing with two different mounts, to the point of losing over 8mpx in the process, but working with 20mpx of R6 as main, 24mpx for a backup are enough for the job).

    But I don't think it was production cost; that would have been if they omitted shutterblades alltogether, manufacturing an electronic-shutter-only camera. It's just a firmware difference, I don't see any possible margin in omitting the shutter closing when turning off, apart of course from people going to R7 just to have the feature, which is possible but I don't know how many people buy an R7 over an R10 just for the shutter protection alone.

    To tell you more, I'm in a "fight" with Canon service (I'm CPS, they at least have to fake listening to me) because of a function of the R10 (regarding AF method assigning to a button) which is available, camera does it (so it's in the firware), but it's buried so deep that even the 900 pages manual won't contemplate it (I actually had to explain it myself to the italian Canon service, they at first answered me "that's not possibile, camera doesn't do that", then to say "man, how could you find that thing working that way, we knew nothing about that being there"), and I'm arguing that that's dumb, it's basically a bug and they should ask the Japanese firmware guys to fix the thing according to my directions...they answered in the end "we will surely pass your valuable suggestion", which basically means "yeah yeah good boy, now shut the f*ck off and let us do our job, which is not taking suggestions from customers, we're not really interested in making our products better", which basically confirm my theory of "don't overcomplicate things for customers and make stuff dumb-proof to the cost of not progressing with functionality".
     
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    AlanF

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    But I freely admit that I sometimes feel a little nervous about damaging the shutter, if I'm changing lenses in a moving vehicle (e.g. on safari) or if I'm changing lenses one-handed when using the other hand to steady myself when clambering about in difficult terrain (rainforests, rockfaces etc). For me, ideally I'd have 2 or 3 identical bodies, each fitted with a different lens, that would rarely be removed - but that wouldn't be practical or economically viable!
    May I suggest you don't change lenses when clambering on rock faces - we would miss your contributions to CR.
     
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    Skux

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    "There's no space in the lineup for a camera between $1000 and $1500"

    Guys, this is the company that simultaneously sells:

    - three EF-M cameras
    - two APS-C RF cameras
    - five full-frame RF cameras (six if you count the original R6)
    - three APS-C EF cameras (five if you include the EOS 2000D and 4000D)
    - three full-frame EF cameras
    - some smaller sensor cameras that I can't keep track of

    Canon will find space because they want to sell you cameras.
     
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    bbasiaga

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    With DLSRs clear glass in a filter adapter was needed, because glass has another density than air and if you simply replaced the filter with air in times when you don't need one, the optical formula would change slightly. That still is the case with mirrorless cameras of course, but I wonder if mirrorless cameras could compensate that. At least for the autofocus it should be possible to compensate that. Maybe not that easy for the lens profiles that are built into the camera or into software.

    You will notice that the adapter with a filter has a slightly different length than the one without a filter to compensate for the glass that is replacing the air. That's why there always is glass in the adapter, even if you do not need a filter. That's a downside you should consider when buying a filter adapter.
    I think it will be lens by lens whether it can compensate. For sure the ML system can a accommodate focus shift since it focuses on the sensor itself. BUt whether the lens has enough travel past infinity is based on the lens. Some have hard stops directly at infinity, particularly MF lenses. Some AF lenses may not have enough extra travel past infinity. Just depends on the lens. But if there is enough travel though the ML system should be able to focus it.


    Brian
     
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    entoman

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    Well, if we're being honest here:
    There is no sign of the R1, R5 high res and there was absolutely no indication the R6mkii was coming till a few days before it got announced so that doesn't mean anything concerning a R/ RP successor. Furthermore, a RP/R won't need as much field testing as Canon does with their high-end models (maybe they don't even field test, I don't know...) so there are fewer "sources" to report to CR or other sites...

    Anyway, lately Canon has become very good of not letting us what they're up to. Or the rumor sites have done a bad job in figuring it out.
    The roadmap posted on CR in 2020 was very precise, therefore I'd suspect Canon somehow wanted to let people know without being held accountable for it. (Yes, companies do that). Now they've obviously changed their policy. The roadmap is not being updated, the UWA lenses which apparently are coming seem like wild guesses and nobody can really make sense of the ongoing rumors.

    In my honest guess: we will see an RP/ R successor BEFORE we see the R1!
    I don't expect Canon to launch the mythical "R1" until 2025, if ever. The R3 seems to satisfy the needs of most event and press photographers who use the Canon system. Canon can't, or won't, compete in price with the Nikon Z9, so it seems pretty pointless at this time to launch an "R1".

    Same goes for the "R5s" - I just don't think there is sufficient demand. The 45MP of the bog standard R5 is more than enough for 99% of Canon users, and while Canon could produce a 100MP-ish sensor, I think wise folk who genuinely need/want super-resolution are more likely to be tempted by a Fujifilm anyway.

    You are right about the way Canon doesn't reveal its cards until the last moment - none of us actually know what they are up to, almost everything that gets "rumoured" here is pure speculation/wishlists combined with logical deduction.

    Good luck with your quest for an R replacement, but I just can't see it. It would have to have IBIS and a better sensor to become an upgrade, and the R6/R6ii fit that bill. Of course they could introduce a "downgrade" in the form of an "R" with an older sensor, they do rather like to over-extend the lifetime of their sensors. But would it be worth buying?

    Some kind of sub-$1000 body (possibly including a kit lens) is inevitable, but I don't think it will bear much similarity to the good ol' RP. More likely to be a vlogging contraption without an EVF..
     
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    entoman

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    Let me phrase it in a different way:
    Do you believe Canon would have designed and starting selling the RF 15-30mm IF they didn't have an R/ RP based customers?
    Well, yes I do. The 85mm macro, 600mm F11, 800mm F11 and 100-400mm certainly weren't designed exclusively or even primarily for R/RP users, they were designed as affordable high quality compact lenses, for users of *any* RF mount camera. I see many R5 and R6 birders here in the UK who have 600mm/800mm F11 on R6 and R5 bodies, and there are plenty of R5/R6 users snapping up the excellent 100-400mm. I'll grant you that the 24-240mm was probably designed for R/RP users though. I've seen very few 15-30mm lenses in use yet on any body, so it's difficult to know what bodies they are put on.

    FWIW, I use the R5 and I've got a wide mix of glass including T/S-E 24mm, RF100-400mm, RF100-500mm, RF100mm macro, RF 24-105mm and RF 800mm F11. Few R5/6 owners can afford a 600mm F4 or a 800mm F5.6...

    I think it's fairly common for users to have a mix of EF-adapted glass, and both L and non-L RF glass.

    I think I've laboured my opinion long enough now (probably too long) so I'll just wish you luck and hope that the R/RP successor of your dreams becomes reality.
     
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    neuroanatomist

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    But I don't think it was production cost; that would have been if they omitted shutterblades alltogether, manufacturing an electronic-shutter-only camera. It's just a firmware difference, I don't see any possible margin in omitting the shutter closing when turning off...
    Good point, I wasn't aware the R10 has a mechanical shutter.
     
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    Deepboy

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    Good point, I wasn't aware the R10 has a mechanical shutter.

    Oh, ok, that changes all! :oops:

    I had given for granted that we were talking about a firmware castration (also because other people already agreed with me that "Canon should add the shutter closure in future firmware for R10"), because, to my knowledge (plese someone correct me if I'm wrong), there never has been any digital Canon ILC that omits the mechanical shutter, so I took for granted that everybody here is aware that all canon DSLR/Mirrorless (D, M, R series) have a mech shutter (at least to date).
     
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    Sporgon

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    As I said, it makes sense that most R10 users won’t change lenses much if ever. More logical that Canon decided that meant it was reasonable to omit the protective shutter to lower production cost (and thus increase margin).
    Magic Lantern have demonstrated that they are able to program the RP to close the shutter when the camera is switched off. (I’m not sure if ML program is commercially available for the RP though and I’m not a fan of ML anyway).
    The principle of closing the shutter over the sensor on a MILC is an interesting move by Canon; I like the concept from a ‘keep dust off the sensor’ principle, but I do wonder; those shutter curtains are incredibly delicate, on a 5DS you can make them flutter with a normal camera hand blower, and is why you mustn’t use aerosol powered air. I’d say the shutter curtains are more vulnerable than the sensor surface, and not just in the case of someone sticking their finger into the camera. For example if changing lenses in wet weather would a drop of water on the sensor have less detrimental effect (and easier to remove) than water on the shutter curtain ?
    Dropping the shutter when the camera is off is clearly a simple thing to do if ML’s efforts are anything to go by; it’s interesting that neither Nikon or Sony offer this.
     
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    Deepboy

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    those shutter curtains are incredibly delicate, on a 5DS you can make them flutter with a normal camera hand blower, and is why you mustn’t use aerosol powered air. I’d say the shutter curtains are more vulnerable than the sensor surface, and not just in the case of someone sticking their finger into the camera

    Yeah, that's what I was thinking; and in Canon they surely did the same reasoning, so they probably decided to leave the shutter exposed only on the higher range of cameras.
     
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