The Canon EOS R8 will be announced at CP+ in February

AlanF

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Magic Lantern have demonstrated that they are able to program the RP to close the shutter when the camera is switched off. (I’m not sure if ML program is commercially available for the RP though and I’m not a fan of ML anyway).
The principle of closing the shutter over the sensor on a MILC is an interesting move by Canon; I like the concept from a ‘keep dust off the sensor’ principle, but I do wonder; those shutter curtains are incredibly delicate, on a 5DS you can make them flutter with a normal camera hand blower, and is why you mustn’t use aerosol powered air. I’d say the shutter curtains are more vulnerable than the sensor surface, and not just in the case of someone sticking their finger into the camera. For example if changing lenses in wet weather would a drop of water on the sensor have less detrimental effect (and easier to remove) than water on the shutter curtain ?
Dropping the shutter when the camera is off is clearly a simple thing to do if ML’s efforts are anything to go by; it’s interesting that neither Nikon or Sony offer this.
Writing from memory, I recall that the Z9 does have a special guard-shutter, not connected with exposure. The arguments that Canon might have deliberately omitted the closing function as a safety feature are cogent. I have never had problems with dust on sensors with DSLRs as I treated them like a bacteriologist handling Petri dishes - open surfaces always facing down as far as possible and avoiding drafts.
 
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Pierre Lagarde

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    Oh, ok, that changes all! :oops:

    I had given for granted that we were talking about a firmware castration (also because other people already agreed with me that "Canon should add the shutter closure in future firmware for R10"), because, to my knowledge (plese someone correct me if I'm wrong), there never has been any digital Canon ILC that omits the mechanical shutter, so I took for granted that everybody here is aware that all canon DSLR/Mirrorless (D, M, R series) have a mech shutter (at least to date).
    Reading all this conversation about R10 and shutter, I would ask some more questions :
    - Could the lack of IBIS on R10 be a part of Canon's decision (maybe considering the sensor "cage" is less fragile, making the sensor easier to clean without risk, or at least they may have balanced the risk on shutter vs the one on sensor) ?
    - are shutters different in built quality from one camera to another and so, more or less prone to be "ruined" by manipulations?
     
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    Sporgon

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    I have never had problems with dust on sensors with DSLRs as I treated them like a bacteriologist handling Petri dishes - open surfaces always facing down as far as possible and avoiding drafts.
    Did you never own the original 5D Alan ? At f/16 the sensor used to look like a teenager’s face with a bad dose of acne.
    An anecdotal point on sensor dust from personal experience: I mainly use primes now and change lenses a great deal, often in circumstances when perhaps I shouldn’t, yet I have very little dust issues now compared with when I used zoom lenses that physically extended , such as the 24-105 / 24-70 etc. From my experience I’d suggest that these types of zoom create more potential for dust on the sensor than changing lenses.
     
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    Deepboy

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    Reading all this conversation about R10 and shutter, I would ask some more questions :
    - Could the lack of IBIS on R10 be a part of Canon's decision (maybe considering the sensor "cage" is less fragile, making the sensor easier to clean without risk, or at least they may have balanced the risk on shutter vs the one on sensor) ?
    - are shutters different in built quality from one camera to another and so, more or less prone to be "ruined" by manipulations?

    - No, sensor with IS shouldn't be more fragile
    - Built quality is different from the perspective of duration (100k shots vs 150k, or 300k...more the camera is "pro", more the shutter will endure before crashing), but not from the "fragility to the touch" perspective; in that regards they're all really, and equally, fragile
     
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    Sporgon

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    at least they may have balanced the risk on shutter vs the one on sensor) ?
    - are shutters different in built quality from one camera to another and so, more or less prone to be "ruined" by manipulations?
    Shutters do vary in their weight and strength, yes. The Canon 5DS / Sr ‘s are paper thin and I’ve seen pictures of ones that have been bent and damaged by someone using an aerosol air jet on them.
    Judging by the sound of the shutters on the RP I assume they’re made from steel plate.
     
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    entoman

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    Shutters do vary in their weight and strength, yes. The Canon 5DS / Sr ‘s are paper thin and I’ve seen pictures of ones that have been bent and damaged by someone using an aerosol air jet on them.
    Judging by the sound of the shutters on the RP I assume they’re made from steel plate.
    Yes, if Canon ever launch a RP replacement, the upgrade needs a quieter shutter!
     
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    Pierre Lagarde

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    - No, sensor with IS shouldn't be more fragile
    - Built quality is different from the perspective of duration (100k shots vs 150k, or 300k...more the camera is "pro", more the shutter will endure before crashing), but not from the "fragility to the touch" perspective; in that regards they're all really, and equally, fragile
    IMHO "should" is the right verb. I'm still convinced that adding some potentially "floating" mechanism to a sensor cage, even if parked, can only add weakness to the whole thing. At least, it adds parts that can be damaged and may be more complicated for beginners (which goes your way of thinking, I guess). I found this at Lenrental on the subject :
    "Cameras with in-body image stabilization have a mode that allows demobilization which makes cleaning easier. It is of utmost importance to make sure this is activated before cleaning the sensor. Not doing so can damage the stabilization mechanism which will require the camera to be sent back to the manufacturer."
    https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2017/04/guide-to-cleaning-your-camera-sensor/

    About duration : aren't more durable shutters a whole sturdier ? That would sound logical.
     
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    Deepboy

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    IMHO "should" is the right verb. I'm still convinced that adding some potentially "floating" mechanism to a sensor cage, even if parked, can only add weakness to the whole thing. At least, it adds parts that can be damaged and may be more complicated for beginners (which goes your way of thinking, I guess). I found this at Lenrental on the subject :
    "Cameras with in-body image stabilization have a mode that allows demobilization which makes cleaning easier. It is of utmost importance to make sure this is activated before cleaning the sensor. Not doing so can damage the stabilization mechanism which will require the camera to be sent back to the manufacturer."
    https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2017/04/guide-to-cleaning-your-camera-sensor/

    About duration : aren't more durable shutters a whole sturdier ? That would sound logical.

    About the R10, apart from possible fragility of the IBIS when cleaning, I think it's just a reasonable market segmentation; if R10 had IBIS, the R7 would sound much closer in specs and less desirable.
    For me a R7 is more desirable for 1- IBIS 2- cLOG (only if you're an avid video shooter) 3- better battery 4- double slot (would be pressing only for wedding photographers), with IBIS being the most interesting of the four.
    If R10 had IBIS, either you shoot weddings (double slot) or you do more video then photo (cLOG); any other situation, I wouldn't see why spend 50% more for the R7, even with the better battery, as you now can charge and operate cameras via USB-C power delivery.
    (and actually, R10's second dial on top, compared to R7's second dial around the joystick, is actually more desirable; being an R6 shooter, I definitely prefer R10's control's layout, which is REALLY close to an R6).

    Duration; on pro cameras the shutter operating motor is stronger and more durable, but actually (someone was already talking about 5DR's shutter being really thin) would be logic that the better shutter has lighter curtains (for example, being able to shoot at 1/8000s vs the 1/4000s of low tier bodies) to be faster and more precise, so I wouldn't be surprised if a pro camera has a more delicate shutter when manipulating it.
     
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    Pierre Lagarde

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    About the R10, apart from possible fragility of the IBIS when cleaning, I think it's just a reasonable market segmentation; if R10 had IBIS, the R7 would sound much closer in specs and less desirable.
    For me a R7 is more desirable for 1- IBIS 2- cLOG (only if you're an avid video shooter) 3- better battery 4- double slot (would be pressing only for wedding photographers), with IBIS being the most interesting of the four.
    If R10 had IBIS, either you shoot weddings (double slot) or you do more video then photo (cLOG); any other situation, I wouldn't see why spend 50% more for the R7, even with the better battery, as you now can charge and operate cameras via USB-C power delivery.
    (and actually, R10's second dial on top, compared to R7's second dial around the joystick, is actually more desirable; being an R6 shooter, I definitely prefer R10's control's layout, which is REALLY close to an R6).

    Duration; on pro cameras the shutter operating motor is stronger and more durable, but actually (someone was already talking about 5DR's shutter being really thin) would be logic that the better shutter has lighter curtains (for example, being able to shoot at 1/8000s vs the 1/4000s of low tier bodies) to be faster and more precise, so I wouldn't be surprised if a pro camera has a more delicate shutter when manipulating it.
    That sounds fair. For the rest, I wasn't discussing of segmentation and personal preferences, but I do get yours. :)
     
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    AlanF

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    Did you never own the original 5D Alan ? At f/16 the sensor used to look like a teenager’s face with a bad dose of acne.
    An anecdotal point on sensor dust from personal experience: I mainly use primes now and change lenses a great deal, often in circumstances when perhaps I shouldn’t, yet I have very little dust issues now compared with when I used zoom lenses that physically extended , such as the 24-105 / 24-70 etc. From my experience I’d suggest that these types of zoom create more potential for dust on the sensor than changing lenses.
    300D, 450D, 7D, 7DII, 5DIII, 5DIV, 90D and 5DSR, but not the original 5D. Never changed lenses with the 300D and 450D, and since then my bodies had good shake clean. The mythical dust-pump activity of the original EF 100-400mm didn't seem to affect the 7D - mind you, my copy was so soft it would have done an analogue skin smooth of an acned teenager.
     
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    AlanF

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    Shutters do vary in their weight and strength, yes. The Canon 5DS / Sr ‘s are paper thin and I’ve seen pictures of ones that have been bent and damaged by someone using an aerosol air jet on them.
    Judging by the sound of the shutters on the RP I assume they’re made from steel plate.
    Interesting - Canon worked hard to minimise shutter shock on those.
     
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    Deepboy

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    That sounds fair. For the rest, I wasn't discussing of segmentation and personal preferences, but I do get yours. :)

    I talked about segmentations just to argue that the missing IBIS on R10 wasn't certanly due to a possibile fragility of the system when used by the average user, contrary to the shutter curtains which are easier to damage then the IBIS on the sensor, and so the non-closing shutter was probably a practical choice from Canon rather then market segmentation :)
     
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    Pierre Lagarde

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    I talked about segmentations just to argue that the missing IBIS on R10 wasn't certanly due to a possibile fragility of the system when used by the average user, contrary to the shutter curtains which are easier to damage then the IBIS on the sensor, and so the non-closing shutter was probably a practical choice from Canon rather then market segmentation :)
    Well, I never wrote (or may I say mean) that the missing IBIS on R10 was due to a possible fragility of the system when used by average users (to me it's just cheaper without it if we're looking for a reason). I asked about the fact that this missing IBIS could be a one more reason (in addition to the reasons you gave that I agree with) for having less the necessity of having the ability to close the shutter... that's quite different.
    Maybe I wasn't clear (english is not my mother tongue).
     
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    EOS 4 Life

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    Could the lack of IBIS on R10 be a part of Canon's decision (maybe considering the sensor "cage" is less fragile, making the sensor easier to clean without risk, or at least they may have balanced the risk on shutter vs the one on sensor) ?
    Actually, someone pointed out to me that IBIS takes a lot of power and the R10 has a tiny battery.
     
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